Behind the scenes with the torch -- part 5
Jasmine and I are standing on the street holding the torch together, her right hand just under my left, as a little boy comes up from the left and a protestor on the right.
The boy came up from Los Angeles just to see the relay. He wants a picture, which we pose for.
The protestor, wielding a camcorder, is yelling, "What's your view on Tibet?"
We ignore him.
"Leave them alone!" says a woman with Alexander. She projects the manner of a seasoned mom shushing a child.
He asks the same question several more times. We don't answer. Maybe bored, maybe in search of a more provokable quarry, he goes away.
As he rides off on his bicycle, 11 motorcycle officers slide up on our right -- between us and the curb.
Four more officers on bicycles come up from behind and encircle us.
To our right, over on the grass -- no sidewalk -- eight or 10 people start cheering for us, and the torch. "We would have been here earlier if we'd known where!"
A photographer for a Stockton newspaper takes a photo, asks for our names. A bunch of protestors rush up, one holding a Tibetan flag, yelling in a language I've never heard.
The police, concerned, close in tighter around us.
The incoming runners, pair 20, Lisa Hartmayer and David Drabkin, approach. We turn to meet them.
At 2:43 pm, the torch is ours.
We are encircled by officers.
I am on the right, Jasmine on the left.
We agree on a slow jog.
To our right I see the crowds scrambling for the next pair.
Nobody tries to tackle us.
Nobody can get close.
The officer in front of us is so close, in fact, that the media truck immediately ahead has to motion him to move aside so the photographers can take photos.
We jog a little bit more.
Then a few steps more.
And then, after about a block, near Octavia Street, we are suddenly upon Pair 22, Marilyn King and Chengben Wang.
We lower the flame to them in a bow -- and it's over. Just under two minutes -- the classic Olympic measurement. The 200 meters in the pool, the 800 meters on the track -- they're over and it's decided in not even two minutes.
An attendant turns off our torch. Another officer runs us back to another bus, about 50 yards back.
We are the first ones on.
Outside, the scrum is growing ever larger as the relay moves toward the Marina and the Golden Gate.
Inside the bus, there's no sound from outside -- no noise, no commotion.
For the next 40 minutes the pairs of torchbearers climb onto the bus. The last three onto the bus are football star and Olympic bobsledder Herschel Walker; swim star Natalie Coughlin; and Willie Brown.
"Mr. Mayor," I ask, are you the last?"
"Yes," he says, just a bit winded, and adds with a big smile, "and they made me go the furtherest."
Inside the bus, it's calm. We are on the elevated approach to the bridge. No protestors here. Just an array of police equipment and helmeted officers that looks like the scene from a movie.
And you wonder whether, in fact, all the other plans had been nothing but part of a clever disinformation project and this had been the plan all along -- this little jaunt down Van Ness, the turn down the Marina toward the beautiful, graceful, golden bridge.
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All you would have needed was a scanner from Radio Shack and you would have known the route before anyone else would have. My scanner picked up all routes and I knew every location as the event transpired. These protestors didn't have the brains to think this through. funny...
the authorities should start arresting
these tibetan hooligans .. sick and tired
of their nonsense. Only the west nations would put up with this. why dont they try
protesting in china .. I like to see them
do it
Exactly,
If we tried to protest in a communist country, we'd get beaten and thrown in jail. Glad that you're all for supporting an oppressive regime since you're "sick and tired" of your freedoms, but since it's obvious from your "English" that you're a Chinese national, why do you go back to your cave and shadow more of your dissidents back home.
I read this: At least one torchbearer decided to show her support for Tibetan independence during her moment in the spotlight. After being passed the Olympic flame, Majora Carter pulled out a small Tibetan flag that she had hidden in her shirt sleeve.
“The Chinese security and cops were on me like white on rice, it was no joke,” said Carter, 41, who runs a nonprofit organization in New York. “They pulled me out of the race, and then San Francisco police officers pushed me back into the crowd on the side of the street.”
so now we can't even express our own opinion while in America? When did the Chinese export their own conditions on us? By allowing the flame to pass through San Francisco, did we sign away our national rights?
I can't wait for the protests in China. Will the Chinese officials beat all of the foreign protestors there? That will really enhance China's image; actually it will show once again that China is a brutal authoritarian state.
It is horrible that the officials in San Francisco allowed the Chinese thugs to control what happened in the United States. Unlike China we do have a right to protest here.
Well aren't you the proud one, Alan. Way to participate in this fraud perpetrated by the Chinese government, the local Chinese mafia, and their little rentboy Gavin Newsom. Now go on home, hide from the world, and pretend everything's fine.
First of all there won't be any protests in China. You would be but a FOOL to even think about pulling any kind of stunt while traveling in that country.
While I firmly believe that China has issues that need to be resolved, Darfur, Burma and Tibet, protesting and encouraging China to go back into their cave and not "play nicely with others" is the wrong thing at this time. We need to keep the dialog open with China and only then will change come. Remember keep your friends close but your enemies closer.
I'd also like to ask the question to those protesting the Olympics and calling for a boycott? Why don't you go a step further stop buying products made in China and call on ALL of the US companies
To answer Dave, have you been following what is going on in your country? Since Bush took office, many freedoms in your country have been eroding. The last National Republican Convention in New York four years ago, they arrested many US American protestors detained and jailed them just for protesting. Some were beaten, pepper sprayed and abused. This police action has been repeated in Florida, Oregon, and California and other places within the USA.
Are you familiar with the laws passed in Congress that have diminished your freedoms? You do know the USA is evolving into a Police State, don't you? So in essence you have already voluntarily signed away your "national rights". China didn't have to export any conditions into the USA; the USA already have it in play for a very long time; you probably never noticed it.
China has nothing over the USA. The USA has a history of atrocities it commits dating back from its inception. The most current are belligerent occupations of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Hawai'i. The USA has slaughtered millions of innocent people just in the last century and this one. There are over 131 US military bases and WMD installations throughout the world and in outer space.
The USA has befriended many countries only to turn against them and destroy their governments. I guess there are many things you don't know that your country has and is doing till today. So while you're getting hyped-up about China; think what your country is doing in YOUR name. Maybe you do but don't care what it does or maybe you've learned to say, "Baaaa!"
I wonder how many of the crazy westerners here actually know where China is. I watch Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader occasionally. It's just hilarious ...
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t1/SanFrancisco/31314181_0_1.html
Hey Bay Area, I happened to be a white guy who believe that sports and politics should not mixed. You ignorant a** .. these tibetan
are spoiling the flame relay for the US folks and will not do a darn thing to china.
Perhaps you should shave your head and start wearing a robe .. lol .. fool
Hello America - we here are just the pot calling the kettle black!
Iraq, Guantanamo, Abu-Ghraib, Waco, Ruby Ridge, water-boarding, secret prisons in other countries, and and and.
WAKE UP, SHUT UP, AND LOOK INTO THE MIRROR!
Our so-called 'land of the free' is not as free as our media and government proclaim.
Our military has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and has displaced over a million - all while it justifies this with lies from our government concerning our 'national interests'.
For all its greatness, and there are many things that our country has done that are good and admirable, America can not justify this name calling ('axis of evil') and China protesting while its own blood-stained hands meddle in other nations affairs through war, covert assinations, and leadership changes.
I am proud of our right to protest. I am disappointed in our myopic, hypocritical methods of expressing displeasure of other nation's actions when we fail to address our own.
LOOK INTO THE MIRROR. Take the dirt out of your own eye before judging the blemish of your brother's
We are a great nation. We must set a far better example of what it means to be great.
I hope that you will consider this for your own way of being.
I am surprised majora carter didnt get her a** kicked. It would be deserving.
Why is there all this fuss? Why all the hate? I do not understand why all of these Chinese /tibetian people are protesting in Paris and the USA? What good is it going to do to protest in a foreign country thousands of miles away? We are American citizens. What right do we have to tell China or Tibet how to run their country? This is about the spirit of human beings. Can we not for the sake of the Olympics not just get along and participate in the Olympics like true athletes and stars do?
dale said: Why is there all this fuss? Why all the hate? I do not understand why all of these Chinese /tibetian people are protesting in Paris and the USA? What right do we have to tell China or Tibet how to run their country?
Yes I agree with dale. This is all so stupid. Obviously, Tibet belongs to China, but it is a rebel country right now, so China is just trying to keep down the insurgence. It's ways of doing so may not be completely moral to "American standards" but what else can they do?
I thought democracies liked free will. So if the people of China prefer communism, then should they have communism? I mean, this whole thing is not just about Tibet, its also about the controvery between socialism and capitalism and the democratic countries' struggle to take power away from other countries. Just look at the history of U.S. I'm in high school and take APUSH, or the United States History AP class, and i've learned all about how some countries, not just US, had tried to defame other countries to spread its own influence throughtout the world.
Also, I think these gay Tibitan groups don't even have the right to prevent the other 10,000 people who specifically went to SF to see the flame. I mean, its once every 4 years!!! If they want peace in Tibet and more humanitarian ways, can't they themselves be a little more of what they are promoting???
ZiZi,
"you've learned all about...", huh? Spoken like a true Chinese educated in China. It's amazing how if anyone brings up the topic of tibet or taiwan to a mainlander that 99% of all mainland Chinese people say the same three or four sentences--rote memorization; no thinking for yourself; it's like a parrot. Put your american education to use and start thinking for yourself.
Our Democracy promotes democracy. We like free will within a democratic state. It's not free will when you cannot express yourself without fear of retaliation. But I'm sure that's what you learned in class, right??, since you know all about this...
As far as something constructive to say: China does not respond well to open criticism because it causes them to lose face. These protests are the worst thing that could have happened for the sake of progress for human rights in China. The best thing? Time. If these protesters were smart, they would seek to understand how to cause change to happen and maybe even come here to spread their cause risking imprisonment, but they don't. why? because it's a convenient bandwagon issue to make themselves feel better at night for being a good person to (supposedly) stand up for other people's rights. "yeah, this was great; I held a flag that said 'free tibet' on it; I'm so proud of myself." Useless. The protests so far and those yet to come will set back at least 10 years of progress for Tibet.
Re: protests in China. Wait for the relay in Hong Kong, guarantee there will be protests allowed. There will even be Chinese protesting 1989, human rights etc.
Yes, Hong Kong is no mainland China but hopefully it gives an example of how, despite the stupid actions of our Government, we Chinese as a people can indeed operate a free society.
Please give China more time and understanding and not just bash and label us with 'communists', 'brutal' and 'brain washed'.
Alan,
I am incredibly proud of you! And thank you for the insightful, first-person report.
While I, as a person of Yaqui heritage, am very sympathetic to the viewers of the protesters, I do not believe the runners should be disrupted.
Peaceful protests are what Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Cesar Chavez taught us. I would prefer that the U.S. demonstrate its displeasure with China's repeated violations of human rights by sending a strong symbol of human rights to the opening ceremonies, such as former President Jimmy Carter.
Here's the Chinese propaganda machine at work
Chinese state media declared the event a success, praising the last-minute route changes as a clever strategy for thwarting “Tibetan separatists.”
The activists “ran into a brick wall in San Francisco,” the Global Times newspaper, published by the Communist Party mouthpiece People’s Daily, said on its Web site. It called the changes a “brilliant idea.”
“Today’s relay was full of suspense and drama ... the whole story was like a Hollywood movie,” China News Service said, though it also called the San Francisco leg a “harmonious journey.”
ZiZi says:
"So if the people of China prefer communism, then should they have communism?"
Did I miss the elections in China? How do you vote against communism (against a one party state)?
Agree with April, in some where.
To my surprise that, most of you stand on the side of the Tibet separators surly having their authority to protest the Olympic, certainly out of my nation-China.
On the other behalf, can you agree with a farther lecturing to his child?
Similarly, as we know the Olympic was born in the Greece, the western world, contrasting with China, in the east. I deeply cannot understand why you, also the Tibet separators protest China through the Olympic Torch. So foolish, like the farther, you have been breaking the civilization was once established by yourselves, as the Olympic, having a long history.
Moreover, as I am still a kid, taking my programmer in the university, I do not indeed care about what you are doing against my nation, for it become more powerful in daily developing. The more I wonder should we protest the world wild game holding every four years. The things should be certainly separated are: Olympic and Politics.
Please REMEBER!
The protestor, wielding a camcorder, is yelling, "What's your view on Tibet?"
........
A bunch of protestors rush up, one holding a Tibetan flag, yelling in a language I've never heard.
........
Followers of Daliar....Monk with great mind. All he wants is simple life. No violence?
lol
Hi Alan - I have pictures of you and Jasmine waiting for the torch and the handoff. I can email them to you if you want them. I live near Octavia which is what made me look and then I realized it was you.
Whatever way anyone argues, the atheletes are innocent, so are the torchbearers. There are better things to do than disrupting the game. So leave the sacred Olympics alone, you ugly politicians and ever-so-provoking media!
The ignorant comments I see on this site are obviously from western chinese who enjoy their freedom to express their opinion while supporting their totalitarian regime in their "motherland." Height of hypocrisy.
If u actually read the charter of rights for the olympics you would understand that what china represents goes against everything for what the olympics stand for..Also when china was awarded the olympics in 2001 it had agreed to work on their human right issues, which they have not done... The pro-tibet protestors have the right to express their outrage & support for the tibetans in tibet who are currently being silenced, what better platform to bring awareness to the current situation in tibet...pro china go on about how it infinges on the games what about the beatings,torture,mass imprisonment & killings that are going on in Tibet..Did you know an elderly tibetan woman was beaten by pla officers bcs she wouldn't denounce the dalai lama, the beating was so severe she was hospitalised..monks in a monastery are currently without meds food & water as they were cut off by the chinese govt since the protest in tibet, one monk starved to death..there are mass rounding up of tibetans that are being placed in chinas "great new railway" & are being sent to probably labour camps...remind anyone of nazi's with the jews...there are numerous stories of brutality by the chinese govt since they invaded tibet in 1950 to this current time...it is now the 21st century & china's govt is still living in the past...their methods for dealing with the "dissidents" r archaic & barbaric...if china wants the worlds respect then they need to join the rest of us in the 21st century & stop acting like a petulant tinpot regime & deal with the ongoing unresolved issues in tibet humanely....until then the pro-tibet demonstrators will continue to support the tibetans.......After all thats what democracy is about...
Tibetans are ugly looking people. They all should live in india or nepal. How the hell did they end up all over the world. Western nations are softie when it comes to ugly people. They should learn how to wear pants too
Who cares what happens in Tibet? How does it really effect what goes on here in the states? I don't think it does so why all the hub-bub?
China even being given the opportunity to host the Olympics was a terrible decision. If they don't want to be held accountable for their actions against their own people & countries like Tibet, perhaps being an Olympic host wasn't a very good idea.
The games shouldn't be about politics and it wouldn't be a problem for most countries, but China really brought this on themselves. I hope as many countries as possible boycott the games all together.
Um yeah, if you protest in this country you get thrown in jail as well. What most Americans don't know is that "free speech" does not mean what it appears to mean. What it most certainly DOES NOT mean is that one make speak freely in this country. There are multitudinous exceptions to "free speech" and violating one of them gets you thrown in jail. For example, false speech is not protected, inciteful speech is not protected, hate speech is not protected and speaking in certain places at certain times also is not protected. What happened at Kent State in the 60's when American spoke their minds? The military came out and shot them and killed them. I fail to see how this is different from Tienaman Square. Our country has shown its protesters what it does to them: it shoots and kills them or puts them in jail.
Under the Alien and Sedition Acts, the government can put any one of us in jail who chooses to speak out against the government in a time of war. In 1920, Eugene V. Debs, Socialist candidate for President of the USA won 1 million votes from a jail cell that election year because he was jailed for speaking his mind.
Most Americans will never know that "free speech" DOES NOT mean free speech. It means you can say what you want until the government doesn't like it and then you'll be shot or put in prison. We are living in a fascism, but the government keeps you all dumb and uneducated. Think about it: when Bush is cutting something from somewhere to wage war for oil in other countries, where do you think he makes those cuts? That's right: education. Why? It makes sense! If you cut education, than the next generation of Americans will grow up with star spangled eyes thinking their country is more free than any other and all the other lies this country feeds them instead of teaching them what they need to know. Did you know that buying marijuana supports terrorism? Yes, our government actually believed that most Americans would believe such a lie and guess what? Most Americans do, but you can't blame them, you have to blame the government that keeps them dumb so that they will not question.
Glad you are safe.
Cordelia said:
there are numerous stories of brutality by the chinese govt since they invaded tibet in 1950 to this current time
----
Hi Cordelia, Tibet is part of China since 13th century.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo
This is the picture that you will not see from CNN, where Protesters Took Advantage of Handicapped Torchbearer's Disability.
http://www.anti-cnn.com/jinjing/paris_protesters_took_advantage.dwt
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NDLfj8cKmc0
CIA’s Secret War in Tibet
http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm
Michael Parenti - Tibet: Friendly Fuedalism?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWGGjpJJCKE
Dalai "Da-Lie" Lama's Naked Truth Exposed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1O-eLmAA8Y
Wow! There are a lot of different opinions out there. So many people believing and embracing different things. It is interesting to see all the different perspectives on one series of events. Sociologists are probably having a field day with this.
Well, I won't give an opinion on current events. I just wanted to applaud people for having opinions. I have been more shocked by the whole olympics business than anything.
I am amazed, though, to see the ignorance of the American people. Many have little to no grasp of history OR geography, both important when discussing socio-political issues. Well, hopefully people will read more books and educate themselves more in the face of this "situation". Knowledge is one's best weapon, not sharp opinions.
Just a suggestion.
If you think you have the right to choose your communist government, why wouldn't you let the Tibetan people choose their own?
China in the past had invaded and occupied Vietnam so many times and for so long, does it mean Vietnam should be considered part of China? China also invaded Korea, does it mean Korea is part of China? The Mongolians took over China prior to the Ming, shouldn't China be part of Mongolia?
Although the torchbearers should not be taken on, if there aren't no protests, would the issue of human rights and Tibet, etc. be taken seriously? The IOC cannot go back to say it was a wrong choice to award china the Olympics, because they have been bitterly tricked by china. They would look like fools to admit it.
It is foolish to use any source from Youtube as references. You can tell from the tone of the person who made it.
I have quit using products labeled "Made in China" for a long time, first in fear of low quality, of poison, and to boycott them economically.
Apology from me for not being clear about Youtube references. I meant anyone using Youtube references to explain why Tibet should be considered part of China is foolish. Should I even tell you why?
haha bqh is totally right
you youtube users are totally stupid. you should be totally embarassed! Try to be a little more formal when presenting your information, would you?
also, screw Tibet, I want a PEACEFUL Olympics that has nothing to do with affairs of some other country. China is like all the way across, its not affecting us. US is to nosy, just look at its whole history and see. God, people are so f-ed up these days!
I don't think it is rather foolish for these Chinese on this blog who are trying to convince these moron westerners that Dalai Lama is a theocratic dictator who have abused his serf in the past. He is the biggest human right violator and they gave him Nobel Prize and also medals!? They know this! These racist westerners just hate China and Chinese. These China haters are originated from the white supremacists all the way back for the last few centuries. Whenever they conquered a land, for example, America, Australia, Canada, they will use this excuse to commit mass genocide. What is their definition of "human right"? It is a joke and they know it. They just want to use this excuse (which they have violated a zillion times) to bring China down and split China. Darfur and Burma are not even China's land and problem. That Spielberg must have a mental problem; he thinks that Chinese are black Africans?! Are Jews Arabs? I think Chinese should boycott all Richard Gere and Spielberg’s movies in China from now on.
All Chinese better wake up fast! Look at what happened to the Olympic torch pass in London, Paris and San Francisco. These western countries staged a mass showdown to try to embarrass China. The handicapped torch bearer was knocked down by the hooligans, but guesses what! Not even one western media is seriously talking about this incident, and they only talked about "China's torch guards", what a joke indeed for western media! I urge that all Chinese should now fabricate the news and start to give them back what they gave us. No more Mr. Nice Guy to see who is going to win this childish game. Frankly speaking, Chinese should not even care who goes to the Olympic, who cares about Mr. Brown and the Old German lady, he is going to see Dalai Lama anyway and she already saw him and embraced the idol worshiper, and I would prohibit Mr. Brown from even entering the Chinese land for the closing ceremony. He is very childish and thinks that he can come and go as he pleases, is he still thinking China is a backward third rate country? China has sent satellite to the moon! Where is England's? Let these China haters boycott it, and then we will know who our true friends are.
BTW, being so many Christians in the western world, they should know better that by embracing a polytheist idol and devil worshiper -Dalai Lama and by going to Iraq and killed so many innocent people in Iraq, they have committed sins against two of the God’s ten commandments, “thou shall not worship other Gods except Jehovah” and also "Thou shall not kill". Now China has more Christians than the US, we will see the true God is going to be on whose side! You western China haters, China's over 10%growth rate is God given and not by coincidence. Something great from Almighty God is waiting for China! God Bless China!
hmmm...I think I have heard about Dalai Lama's dictorship / human rights violations. Whatever, I just want a good Olympics this year! People! like please stop all this crap can we just have some good, nice sports without all this politics? If Tibet belongs to China then let the Chinese deal with it. Don't ruin it for those poor athletes who only want to show their talents to the world!
I think I'm on China's side with this one. First of all, like what most people are saying, this is a f-in Olympics! Let the atheletes compete without all this drama and politics.
This reminds me of the US and Russia hostility during and after the WWII and during Cold War. Basically the US rejected Russia just because it was a communist country. Now how welcoming is that considering that although Russia did not favor democracy, they wanted to be nice to the US?
From all these lies about Russia during the Cold War, I'm starting to think that this is happening all over again with China. China is a communist country. Therefore, US has to intervene in its affairs. I'm telling you, if this had to do with some other democratic country like Great Britain or France trying to keep their colonies, the US would probably either ignore or support their cause.
Americans are so ignorant these day. Do some research before you rant your foolish, ignorant "opinions" here, will ya?
I think the protesters have a point, but their are totally disrupting the Olympics for like the other 6 billion people in the world. lol just stop this whole thing. Maybe you could start it after the Olympics is over? I love the women's gymnastics!
I don't know alot about this whole situation, but the Americans do seem to be taking it to the extreme.
You never know, but considering that China has totally different social policies than US, London, and France, they may be gaining up on China to tear it apart and keep its world power low. I do know that China's world power is rapidly rising these days, it would probably dominate US in a few decades, maybe.
Anyways, I think it is just like how the Iraq War started. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Should I explain anymore, my fellow ignorant American fatties?
Leave China alone you racist democratic fanatics!!! And this is coming from a white person in America!!! (but one who is not ignorant like the rest of you thank God. I also had doubts about the Iraq War, and look where it is going right now! Don't do the same to China!)
Nikita @4-10-2008 10:48 PM
You are partially correct. Russia agreed to the US terms to get rid of communism and the US turned its back on Russia. The Russians almost starved to death. I don't think "communism" per se is the issue; it is a geopolitical struggle to see who the dominant power is.
Even though China emphasizes its "peaceful rise", do you think western countries are going to leave it alone? No way, Jose!
I guarantee that if China will listen to whatever the western countries demand, for example, open up Tibet, talking to Dalai Lama, open free press, and guess what, they are going to find other excuses to mock China. They are already doing that, for example, Darfur and Burma, wake up guys, these are not even China's lands and China's problems and China did not create these problems and they want China to solve the Darfur problem? As a matter of fact the US has more say in Darfur than China; I read one of the news said. Mr. Spielberg is awefully wrong in this reagrd, even though I think he does make very good movies.
The bottom line: If they don't like you, no matter what you do is wrong, that is my point. But I agree 100% with you and the other person that we should let the athletes compete in a politically free environment. It is disgusting for these politicians to mingle politics with sports.
I think all this is coming from some violation of human rights by China but also from racism by white supremacists.
To that bpd guy:
No, China does not have the right to keep Korea or Vietnam, nor does Mongolia have the right to keep China. However, China does have the right to retain Tibet because the Tibetans are literally native chinese decendents are they not? Therefore, Tibet is part of China. It does not want to be, but it just has to face life.
People, try to put aside your racism and discrimination for Asians and for Communism and place yourself in the Chinese leaders' shoes.
What would you do if a part of the US, say an important state like California, wants to leave and be an independent country? Wouldn't you expect that many Americans would protest to this? You bet! And this is simply what China is doing.
Although I think that China could be more gentle with Tibet, it is only trying to keep a part of its property. Most likely, Tibet would be invaded by some other power hungry country if it were independent. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that if it cooperates, its people would certainly have a better life. I think the Dalai Lama is ruining it for his people.
Contrary to popular beliefs, like someone on this post said, the Dalai Lama is not this peaceful, Gandhi-like figure many believe him to be. I'm don't hate him, but am informing you that he has a dark past. He does advocate violence. I'm in high school right now am in World History, so I've studied the China-Tibet situation too. According to my textbook, the Dalai has killed many of his own people to rise to power. i always though he was this God-like figure until I read that.
So maybe "evil" is actually the good guy here? I'm not trying the convert someone or influence them, but I'm only saying that you should know your facts before you accuse someone, or some country for that matter.
And, have respect for the atheletes, please. They have the right to compete without all this mess!
You know what? Sciencegirl has a point there. If like CA wanted to leave the US, I think I wouldn't support that. I'd be made about it and would want the government to keep it from leaving. So maybe China has the right to do all it can to keep Tibet, cuz its part of China.
Yea, I want the Olympics to carry on in peace too!
You know what? Sciencegirl has a point there. If like CA wanted to leave the US, I think I wouldn't support that. I'd be made about it and would want the government to keep it from leaving. So maybe China has the right to do all it can to keep Tibet, cuz its part of China.
Yea, I want the Olympics to carry on in peace too!
sorry for the two posts, something went wrong i guess
Wow! so many opinions! haha I like spent the like gazillion years reading the comments here. They're all really really interesting. I guess China is being a little violent with Tibet, but like some people said, China is just trying to keep its country intact. This is a cool debate topic, but I still think we should save it for the Olympics, esp swimming!!!
Now we are talking serious matter. I see some comments are now making senses instead of the white supreme racist anti-Chinese attitude.
Frankly speaking, I am more worried about America's future in terms of their faith and what God is going to do to us.
You know our leaders (I am a US citizen) are openly embracing devil worshiper and he claimed that he is a "devoted Christian"? So is Nancy Pelosi. Are political leaders all liars and blasphemers?
I pray that God have mercy on our land. We can not bring idol worshipers to this beautiful land and kill innocent people and expect God is not going to be mad at us.
If you don't believe me read the bible yourself on Old Testament Chronicles to see how God punished the Israelites for their inequities against God commandments
You know what? This is sort of like the American Revolution, except with the Tibetans.
Even though I live in the US, I am a history major and I think that many of the hatred that propelled the American Rev was due to misunderstanding between Britain and its colony. I don't want to get into the details, but, in a way, the Revolution was not a justifiable act, and many colonists' anger were fed by propagandists fo that time who wanted to profit from motherland independence.
So I am comparing this to the situation with China. Many people are probably overreacting because of the small, but still significant, bias that we still have in America towards people of different race. China is the "bad guy" and Britain supposedly was also the bad guy in the colonial days. However, according to my studies, the rebel United States was hte real bad guy. In a way it is a good thing because I live in America, but you cannot deny what truly happened. So China is like Britain: there is misunderstanding between Tibet and China, not to mention a misunderstanding between the United States and China too.
Think about this, don't dismiss this because what I am saying is not what you hear and believe everyday, or want to hear and believe.
umm what does God have to do with this? oh, is this because Chinese people don't believe in God???
Not everyone believes in God Orthodox Christian and you shouldn't punish someone just cuz they like have different beliefs. I think that if you do, then you are a bad person. Israelites are not all bad people.
lol sorry, joking about the Chinese people not believing God thing.
But when did US leaders worship the devil? I can't imagine that. Well, Bush is pretty dumb, so maybe he can't tell the difference between God and Devil. hahahahaha!
Hey Alan - I left you a previous note about the pictures of you and Jasmine during the torch relay.
I can't say that the events you described in your story are true, false or maybe slightly exagerated - BUT, the pictures I took of you and Jasmine could cast some doubt on the truthfulness of your article. Looks like police from the get go and no pro-Tibet camera man on a bike badgering you and no Mom and her son asking for photos. Anyone that was there, like I was, would agree that there was NO WAY the SF Police and Chinese paramilitary guards in blue sweatsuits would have allowed such an encounter.
I am not doing this because I am pro-Tibet or Darfur or China or whatever. I am just curious and think my motivation comes from the fact that WE ALL rely on our MEDIA SOURCES to be honest and TRUSTWORTHY. Can we rely on your story being 100% truthfull or is it part entertainment and is their a desire to make it interesting to get it published?
Many people at the demonstration were there for legitimate reasons to promote their cause - whatever side it was. Many others were there to just see the torch. Even more were there to see the spectacle and were hoping to see something memorable like a big brawl.
The most noticeable thing for me out the entire event, had to be the coordinated effort on the side of the Chinese to show their support. This can be a very inspiring thing and when done organicaly or naturally, it can be amazing. This was not natural. The Chinese flags were spaced out too specifically, they were all the same size, they were all on the same white poles, the small ones were all matched with a USA flag, too many of the pro-Chines people had back packs like one would have if they were on a day trip from Sacramento or UC Davis or another city from far away. It really felt like or at least it was my impression that most of the Chinese supporters were "sent" here. Maybe it was a disconnect that I had with the culture that gave me these impressions? I don't know. I consider myself a reasonable person and I have to say that from the sidelines and being a person that has never taken a stand for Darfur, Tibet or China - it really did feel like big brother was present within the Chinese crowd. Maybe it was a blind following that comes with national pride but I fear that it was a following out of fear or even some unseen motivation. I felt no excitement that one gets from that special events such as this. It felt forced.
I never contribute to these blogs or forums but for some reason felt compelled enough to express my view or my experience.
You want those pictures Alan???
Free Tibet, wait, where is Tibet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twHzXN3kNTs&eurl=h
Robbie, you should reconsider what you said about chinese decendants, because if you live in the US, especially SF, it may catch on to you later that SF should become part of china too, as there are many chinese decendants there. According to your theory, there won't be any U.S., as there are many ethnics here.
It is up to the Tibetan people's will, whether they want to join china or not. What's needed is a free election to see what they want to be, in such controversial time.
I am a university stedent in Shanghai China.Far from many chinese youth on the internet, I do not interested in politics,the chinese goverment and Tibet issue .I also do not care something anti-china protesters and pro-china supporters.But I feel really sorry that the torch relay has become like that.What it conveys should be faith,love and peace,not political wars.I still believe the sipirit of Olympics belongs to all of the world,including tibeten and chinese
God bless Olympics and good luck Beijing!
we should relocate all tibetans into nancy pelosi house and she can start wearing a fuschia robe. This way we will acheive world peace. In their spare time, the tibetans can be hollywood extras since they are pretty good at staging street shows.
Lakota Nation Breaks Away From America
http://theblacksentinel.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/lakota-nation-breaks-away-from-america/
I would suggest we adhere to the topic of discussion and avoid all the "Red herring" and "Tu quoque" arguments. If there is no reply to a view, either the view is right and no one can question it, or it is irrelevant and no one bothers to mention it. :)
Tibet: The Truth (oppression, monks, nuns... you're wrong)
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY
The failure to address the issues behind the 2008 Beijing Olympics echoes the moral fiasco of the 1936 Berlin Olympics. Nations debated a boycott then and decided to attend Hitler's Nazi showcase - and millions died.
The exact same issue presents itself again. This time we already know the Chinese government supplies arms to Sudan and Burma. We know it continues to violently undermine Tibetan sovereignty. We know the Chinese government continues to imprison, torture and murder politcal and religious freedom activists.
Any support, attendance, viewing, sponsorship, reporting of the Beijing Olympics is complicity to bloodshed. It's that simple folks. If we choose to ignore history's lessons, it will repeat itself.
Mike -- would love the photos -- alan.abrahamson@nbcsports.com -- FYI to you and anyone/everyone else reading -- the action transpired just as I described -- the gentlemen asking us our viewpoint about Tibet was over to our right, on the grass -- the boy asking for a photo was out in the street with us just moments beforehand -- as the motorcycle and then the bicycle officers arrived, I made point of counting the numbers of each aloud and relaying that count to Jasmine, she doing her own count and agreeing, so that my reporting would/could be accurate -- I appreciate the interest, and in particular the more relevant observations and remarks, of all who have posted to this thread -- Alan
Tibet! The real Tibet may have you shocked!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siBqFgwL-lA&NR=1
Since when does the US allow Chinese police/thugs to manhandle and intimidate American citizens on our own soil?
To Chris: who gives American power to kill lives in Iraq on their soil?
Why do we call the Tibet people Tibetan? Why don't we call them Chinese if they are really Chinese? Because they are not Chinese!! Duh!!
The IOC was brilliant in allowing China to host the Olympics. The IOC helped bring to light the ugly side of the Chinese government by giving the oppressed people a chance to be heard.
The Tibetan are smart to use this chance to let the world know of China's intention.
What is with China anyways? They so have much problems and issue within their country why do they bother wanting more territories. First, they wanted Taiwan, then they took 2 of Vietnam's island, and now the issue with Tibet. I wonder what is next. Whoever is border of China should be aware!!!
Look at the 1980 Olympics in Russia. President Carter boycotted the Olympics in Russia because the Russian was sending troupes over to Afghanistan. We could have done more to help the Tibetan.
Waco, Ruby Ridge, Guantanamo, Abu-Ghraib, water boarding? You have got to be kidding! You are comparing those to what the Chinese are doing to Tibet? Of all of those maybe Waco was the worst, and that was because of a completely incompetent AG.
Have to respond to a post by Mike who questioned if any of the pro-china groups were organized by Chinese government. No, we are not organized by Chinese government. The t-shirts and the buses are paid by ordinary people who wants to see a peaceful Olympic torch relay and who feel proud to be a Chinese or an American Chinses. In my bus, the expenses were paid out of our orgnizers own pockets voluntarily.
I also want to thank Alen for the blog. It gave me inside details that we missed due to the pro-Tibet protester.
Let's have a peaceful Olympic Game in Beijing! See you there.
I want to protest to the Tibetans and Tibet supporters in San Francisco for usurping OUR RIGHT to view the Olympic Torch Relay in San Francisco!! This is almost once in our lifetime to observe such a moment, especially in our beautiful San Francisco, right next to San Francisco Bay. Instead those people use this to further their political outcry. They should never have crossed the line and tint the spirit of the Olympic Games and that is, to bring unity to every nation on earth together in a friendly game!! Shame on you, Tibetans.
It isn't fair to say it was the Tibetans fault that the torch relay was effected. If it was another country hosting the Olympic, it wouldn't happen. It is because China, a country that is known to violates human rights etc.., is hosting the Olympic, which stands for unity and international friendship. It doesn't equal does it?
So, China is to blame for what happened.
To Gemma Hon,
It isn't fair to say it was the Tibetans fault that the torch relay was effected. If it was another country hosting the Olympic, it wouldn't happen. It is because China, a country that is known to violates human rights etc.., is hosting the Olympic, which stands for unity and international friendship. It doesn't equal does it?
So, China is to blame for what happened.
To: "It is Tibetan and not Chinese! said"
Of course Chinese is not "it", only the Tibetan thugs like you who claimed to be "it" (like an animal), who burned, killed Han and Hui people and destroyed their properties in Tibet!
You falsely claimed that "Tibetans are not Chinese". But let's do a scientific proof. If you would dare to donate your DNA swab, let see how much of your genetic material the same as the Chinese are. Of course I doubt that you are a true Tibetan anyway!
Tibetans (Zang) people and Han are among the six major tribes of Chinese. Zang and Han had blood relationship went back as far as to the 13th century in the Tang Dynasty. So please don't make such a foolish remark all over the world!
Of course you are paid by the foreign interest groups to try to destroy your motherland (if you are a real Zang). Shame on you! Get a real job will you?!
My understanding is that only a small portion of the protestors are Tibetans. The rest is foreigners, who have the same view as Tibetans, and thus support their movement. If you want to blame, blame it on foreigners too. Wait !! you should blame it on the entire human-rights and Free-Tibet movement that many ethnics support. (Here's your sign: you should know what it means - majority).
"tibetan said:
To Gemma Hon,"
What a strange logic! The thief is calling others stealing! You Tibetan thugs killed, burned and destroyed Han and Hui's human right and you shamelessly blame the Chinese violated "human right"?
Your violent behaviors were all filmed and recorded and I have seen them. You guys have pulled a motor cyclist and used stones and beaten him to death.
You guys are murderers. These westerners supported you are stupid idoits, who have no sense of right and wrong.
bqh, wait until the 1.3 billion Chinese are after your butt, you will wish you will never born!
To the Han and Zang,
If i donate a mokey's saliva, it would be close to ur brother's and sister's as well, at least 99% similar.
Is this how Chinese government treat their brother and sister? Putting them in jail for saying and demanding what they want? oppressing their their religious belief?
Let me give you some hint:
1. Attacking people instead of their view: is called "Ad hominem".
2. Assuming someone is Tibetan: is called "Straw man".
3. Threatening someone for saying what many think is right: is called ... "Chinese" ???
Please, there is no place for foul language in a debate.
To tibetan or not
You are obviously don't know the field of genetics very much, there is a Y chromosome exclusively comes from father and a mitochondria DNA from mother, by anyazing these two materials, you have a very good idea of your ancestors!
"Monkeys" hmm, maybe you are a monkey or you won't kill your Han brothers and sisters. Get a real job and education will you?! and stop messing around with the Olympic, it belongs to the whole world, and you are hijacking it. Shame on you!
bqh you are an idiot and here is the proof:
1) Chinese is the majority and not you or any other tibetan supporters.
2) no assumption was made becasue you have called yourself a tibetan or a tibetan supporter!
3) No need to threaten you, becasue you are a minority unfortunately.
Please, there is a place for idoit to debate, go to the bar!
Let me elaborate what you just said (which I don't think you realize what you said anyway).
1) Chinese is the majority and not you or any other tibetan supporters.
=> It tells alot about Chinese govnt., that they only know to use power and force to suppress or take over others.
2) no assumption was made becasue you have called yourself a tibetan or a tibetan supporter!
=> This is completely invalid. However, it says that Chinese are liars who just said something previously and now deny it, in the face of the public - which explains how they were awarded the Olympics.
3) No need to threaten you, becasue you are a minority unfortunately.
=> This re-enforces points (1) and (2)
Why do Tibetans don't want to be Chinese? Beside being oppressed, they get nothing, not even human rights. Not anyone in their right mind would.
I bet if they were allowed to be US citizens, they would sign up as fast as they were running away from China.
Why do Tibetans don't want to be Chinese? Beside being oppressed, they get nothing, not even human rights. Not anyone in their right mind would.
I bet if they were allowed to be US citizens, they would sign up as fast as they were running away from China. Not only them, the Chinese would as well.
1) 1 out of 4 people on this earth is a Chinese and that is an absolute majority. What that has to do with the Chinese Government? Do you have a comprehension problem?
2) Look at all of your writings, you completely twisted the facts, let me ask you how do you justify that the Tibetan thugs who killed the Han and Hui people and burned their properties? I am a liar or you are a liar? Let the fact speaks for itself!
3) You said that you are being threatened! Oh poor you! what I was saying is that there is no need to threaten you, because you belong to a very tiny fraction of the human population and the Chinese are kind enough to forgive you just as they have forgiven the Tibetans for 40 years. The Chinese abolished the serf system, gave them the college education, fed them, built transportation systems. If the Chinese were British people or Americans, there would be no Tibetans left on this earth. This is the western style "human right" unfortunately.
"Why do Tibetans don't want to be Chinese? Beside being oppressed, they get nothing, not even human rights. Not anyone in their right mind would."
=>Tibetan (Zang) is one of the six major tribes of Chinese, you moron!
=>Human right? The tibetan thugs killed Han and Hui and they took away the human rights of the Han and Hui, Please make this straight will you? you moron!
"I bet if they were allowed to be US citizens, they would sign up as fast as they were running away from China. Not only them, the Chinese would as well."
=>I am a US citizen and I am a Christian, frankly speaking, if you want the tibetan thugs, I have no objections but you can bring them to your neighborhood. I want these idol worshipers and devil worshipers to be as far away from me as possible. I don't want to violates God's ten commendaments, you moron!
To whoever is above me at 10:32 about bph being an idiot: well said! bph IS an idiot because he is racist! although i have to comment that what you said is sort of radical too, but whatever, don't let the lies anger you =)
Anyways, bph, as well as many others here, are totally being racist. You guys are blaming the Chinese PEOPLE!!! What have we done to get this? We did not do anything; this is completely a matter between the Chinese government and the Tibetan rebels. So whoever said that Chinese people have monkey DNA is a damn fool.
this is not the Chinese people or Tibetan people's fault, it is their governments' fault, so blame them, don't freakin attack us, get it?
I have to admit that the chinese gov is being a little to harsh with the Tibetans, but you have to note the rebels, and the western democracies, are not being fair to china either. like someone earlier said, what is a state in the US wants to suceed? wouldn't you get hella mad and want the US gov to stop it? That is what the chinese gov is trying to do, but because it is an asian country, many of the caucasian countries are ganging up on it, similar to what you guys are doing to the Chinese Americans on this board.
Both sides' arguments are somewhat justifiable. I think that what should be done is that the other countries that have nothing to do with this should back off, as it is not their affair. No one likes nosy people. However, the Tibetans and the Chinese are free to protest if they want i guess, another I wouldn't.
I think that Tibet and China should compromise. Like Tibet agrees to be part of China and maybe China could give free elections, cuz that is one thing i think people should have. It could still be communist, cuz its good for society with all the sharing right? but like I do believe people should have free elections =)
Yes, i hope that it how things would turn out. But for now, please stop bickering, both the racist Chinese and americans here. Its annoying.
Lets look forward to an exciting and peaceful Olympics!!!
oh wow, i just re-read what i wrote in my comment above at 11:07.
I have so many grammar errors lol, soory about that guys!
Hey you guys, this is an interesting thing i found on facebook that i think gives new insight into this whole mess. It is by Eric Hendrickson at this link
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=10033988110&topic=4540
Here's what is says:
I'm Pro-Tibet Independence but against the Dalai Lama and the errors in Western Media
Now, I never had confidence in Western Media, especially after Dan Rather. However, when my friends in China started protesting against the Western media's "lies", I became curious about the situation in Tibet. What I found was that they were not 100% wrong.
I do not agree that Western media "lied" about Tibet; after all, Western media was not allowed in Tibet. Who else, besides the Chinese government, could we have gotten our info from? The Tibetans themselves, and the Dalai Lama. My assumption here is that THEY lied, not the Western media. That being said, the Western media has its agenda (they like the Mahatma Gandhi-type "peaceful protest" type, and many Westerners really like Buddhism and think it's a peaceful religion and are sympathetic to Tibet). However, that is another story.
Upon reading about the feudal culture of Tibet, the barbarity of which was equal to if not greater than that in Europe under the feudal nobles and Catholic Church, I became more and more convinced that the Dalai Lama was a liar, since the only image we get of him is a kind old man who once led a Shangri-La type country. I was outraged, and I thought, "Such a lying scoundrel and a people that would lie about its outright, unprovoked violence towards the Chinese government does not deserve US help or even interest in gaining independence."
That said, I think that if Tibet wants independence, it has every right to try and obtain it. But if it cannot be honest to the West it should not expect help. As for the Dalai Lama, I could never support him being in charge of that country. I would only be satisfied if a democratic government, Tibetan or, if it REALLY considers Tibet's interests equal to its own (similar to Canada and Quebec), a maybe a democratic Chinese government.
Considering this, I'm absolutely against the Dalai Lama, though I'm also against the principles of the totalitarian Chinese government. For this reason, I'm pro-Tibet independence but against the Dalai Lama.
Oh! China is so great!! So wonderful!!! The people are beloved and taken care of and that is why I am living in America!!!!YEAAA
WHo cares about those who has to be oppressed by the chinese goverment when I am living in America where enjoy my freedom of speech and many more!!! Oh yea!! It is where I enjoyed being Christian too. If I were in China, I would worship Mao as my god instead!
I am being sarcastic in case you don't get it with your low IQ!
You think you are religious? China has more Christians than the US!
You think that you are "free", try to protest in front of the white house!
You think that you have the "human right"? how many red indians and Chinese that your ancestors have slaughtered?
You are a pathetic racist liar! If you are a Christian and be afraid of the hell fire!
BTW, I have an IQ more than 160, waht is yours? 80?
Hahahaha!
R u serious? Anyone with IQ that high would not use the vocabularies that you have been using. 160 doesn't sound like the number of your IQ but sounds like your systolic blood pressure. Take a pill already before you get a stroke!! (A friendly reminder!!!)
I am thankful that you have the right to says the things you said about the American government without being put in jail. But you know what, the Chinese in China and the Tibetan don't.
By the way, it is a fact that monkey's DNA is 99% similar to your. Look it up!!
Being a Chinese American Christian, normally I would like to stay away from politics; however, the recent Olympic fiasco forced me to make a few political comments.
I don't think it is rather foolish for all these Chinese in this blog, who are trying to convince some biased westerners that Dalai Lama is a dangerous theocratic dictator who have abused his serf in the past. He is the biggest human right violator and they gave him Nobel Prize and also medals!? In my humble opinion, I think they do know this! But these racist westerners just hate China and Chinese to such extent that they are willing to fabricate lies to dsitort the media coverage. These China haters are originated from the white supremacists all the way back for the last few centuries. Whenever they conquered a piece of land, for example, America, Australia or Canada, they will use this "superior race" excuse to commit mass genocide. These people also grossly abused the hard working Chinese who built the Trans America rail road in the 19th century, many of them were brutally slaughtered. Then what is the true definition of "human right"? They have made this into a mockery! They just want to use this excuse (which they have violated a zillion times) to bring China down and split China. Thye have used so many anti-China organizations world wide. Darfur and Burma are not even China's land and problems. American and Britain have sent arms all over the world. That Spielberg must have a mental problem; he thinks that Chinese are black Africans?! I think Chinese should boycott all Richard Gere and Spielberg’s movies in China from now on.
All Chinese must wake up fast! The western media has grossly distorted the facts. The true fact was that the Han and Hui Chinese human rights were grossly violated by the Tibetan thugs. I have seen a movie that the Tibetan thugs torn down Han and Huis's stores and put fires in them. I also saw a footage that a han motor cylcist was pulled down by the Tibetans thugs and he was stoned to death on the spot. You westerners called these "peaceful demonstration"??? Where is your justice and decency?
Look at what happened to the Olympic torch pass in London, Paris and San Francisco. These western countries staged a mass showdown to try to embarrass China. For example, the poor handicapped lady torch bearer was knocked down by the hooligans, but guesses what! Not even one western media is seriously talking about this incident, and they only talked about "China's torch paramilitary guards", and it turened out that these 'guards" were trying to protect the torch bearers life. What a shame indeed for the western media! I urge that Chinese media should now fabricate the western news and start to give them back what they have done. No more Mr. Nice Guy to see who has more people and who is going to win this childish game. Frankly speaking, Chinese should not even care who goes to the Olympic, who cares about Mr. Brown, Mr. Bush, Mr. Sarzoky or the Old German lady, most of them have announced to see Dalai Lama anyway and she already saw him and embraced the idol worshiper. If I am Mr. Hu, the Chinese president, I would prohibit Mr. Brown from even entering the Chinese land for the closing ceremony. Mr. Brown is very childish and thinks that he can come and go as he pleases. Is he still thinking that China is a backward third world country? Think again! China has sent satellite to the moon! Where is England's? Let these China haters boycott it, and then we will know who our true friends are.
BTW, being so many Christians in the western world, they should know better that by embracing and supporting a polytheist idol and devil worshiper - Dalai Lama and by going to Iraq and killed so many innocent people in Iraq, they have committed sins against two of the God’s ten commandments, “thou shall not worship other Gods except Jehovah” and also "Thou shall not kill". In addition, the media also violated “thou shall not bear false witness".
Now China has more Christians than the US, we will see whose side the true God is going to be on! God Bless China!
Stop all these nonsense China bashing and let the Olympic to be politics free and let America mind her own economical problems instead of trying to interfere with other contry's internal business, the same tricks that brought down Russia actually make China even stronger.
I didn't think people have only been attacking china while supporting the Dalai Lama. I have been careful not to bring religion into the discussion. Besides those talking trash in here, why do you think the Tibetan people rise against the chinese ruling? It doesn't matter if china invaded Tibet to free them, as some believe, or just because of their greed, those Tibetans do not seem to want you around. It doesn't look like the Chinese govt. is welcomed there. Why stay and cause all these troubles? Is it not obvious enough? It doesn't matter which Tibetan leader comes to rule Tibet, it is their people's choice. You shouldn't say that "U.S. does that, why can't we?". U.S. has been, and still is wrong. But that doesn't justify chinese govt. ruling another country, be it Tibet or any other. If the Dalai Lama is evil like some say, his people will soon or later uprise against him. You cannot compare U.S. with China about a state declaring independence. U.S. is a union and the states joined them at their will. Can you say Tibet ever wanted to join china?
And please try to respect others by not name-calling.
You are indeed as smart as a monkey! I have a Ph.D. degree, what is yours?
You don't even know the difference of Y chromosome and mitochondria DNA. That has nothing to do with the 99% similarity of a Chimpanzee DNA with human's (look! you smart idiot, it is not "monkey DNA", OK?)
I suggest that you continue your racist China bashing; it is very good for your blood pressure, but take a pill before you do it though, since there are so many Chinese here and you may get a heart attack soon.
bqh, you are clueless about Chinese history and Tibet (zang) history.
Let me waste one more time of my precious life and please listen carefully.
Since the 13th century, Zang and Han had blood relationship. Zang is one of our Chinese brothers and sisters, even Dalai Lama called Chinese his brothere and sisters. You have no right to split us. This is our family feud.
I think that the current fisco is financed and paid by western nations and they are trying to use the same technique that destroyed Russia on China. But I can tell you that this trick will not prosper. The younger generation Chinese are extremely patriotic and not necessarily love communism. At least 10% of the Chinese are Christians.
It is the people so gullable who are being used by the media and their government. I think you should read more about who the Dalai Lama really is, what China has done in Tibet before you make some very foolish comments as noted here thus far.
Don't be like a dog eating some of other people's regurgitated stuff and feel it is yummy!
Read more and get educated before you make a conclusion.
I have read the Tibet and Indo-China history since 1970's and I think that I am qualified to make a comment.
With that said, there is only one suggestion to you: Go to the library and google it for one month and then I guarantee that your mind about the Tibet will be changed.
Peace!
Why don't you directly answer my questions? Instead of going around name-calling people? We voice our views in a professional and educated way. We don't call people dogs. If you're up to answering my questions, then please educate me more with your direct answers. What does this have to do with Christian or Buddism, or Dalai Lama? Your words are not those of an educated PhD person. Again, the protestors do not necessarily support the Dalai Lama. However, it is obvious they support the Tibetan people. China should follow Russia in letting invaded areas go, if that is their people's will.
Also, many European countries were related somehow by blood through marriage, does that mean they have to be brothers? and be oppressed together?
Reality and History
As in every part of the world, there are bunches of problems in Tibet. Among them, "Free Tibet" is just a
pseudo-question. Historically, Tibet at most can be argued to have been an independent country for a period;
Politically, it is impossible to declare independence and Dalai Lama recognizes this point; Economically it
cannot survive without being a part of China. Tibetans are also willing to live together with Han and Muslims as
they did for centuries. Ignoring the reality and sticking to the wrong question can only create meaningless
hostility and distract the efforts for concrete improvement of governance. Please give some time to know the
real Tibet.
http://www.peaceintibet.com/history.html
bph,
Although you want me to treat you like a human being, but your support of a bunch of mindless thugs, who killed, mutilated, stoned and burned other innocent human beings to death and called them "freedom fighters" as the CNN and BBC media did and I am sorry, I had to call you guys morons, idiots and animals.
If you Tibetan supporters still don't understand this, I can't help it. You think you had a moral high ground but in reality, you don't. Clean up your own dirty rugs in Iraq before preaching to China.
If you are a Christian, then beware the mighty God is watching you. You have lied, worshiped the idol- Dalai Lama as Richard Gere and also committed killings, OK? Think about what I said. I have no problems that you want to say, support or do whatever as long as they are legal, because ours is a "free" country to certain extent but just beware whether it is right or wrong.
In this case, your support of Tibet has no moral justification. You seem to have a logical thinking problem and the other people also mentioned this and I am not the only one, therefore let's not dwell on this.
Your writing revealed fully your intent to treat Russia and China the same and your ulterior motivation to split China. I am so sorry, you are absolutely wrong about the Chinese culture and the strength of its people. Let me tell you when Chinese lived in a house, you (if you are a westerner) were still living in a cave. China navy was the strongest in the 13-14th century and found Americn before Columbus did but she never invaded any other countries Like the British, the Spaniards and the Portuguese; do you understand the peaceful and harmonious nature of the Chinese people?
Well, if you don't think that I have a Ph.D.degree that won't bother me, I know what I have and please go to the library and learn more about Tibet and China, will you? Your comments here are rather foolish and don't make any sense.
BBC: A Year in Tibet Episode1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3725573386055408291
BBC: A Year in Tibet Episode2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4651674230515514021
You guys please stop the name calling. Whether you guys like it or not, you have to look at the the real, unbiased facts:
1. What the protestors did in SF is wrong because they did not have the right to ruin this race for those who came to see the fire. Let the Olympics carry on for the sake of the rest of the world!
2. The Chinese gov is violating human rights in Tibet
3. However, Tibet is China; it has been part of it since the 13th century. Please note that Tibetans are, in reality, Chinese who are rebelling.
4. The pro-Tibetans justify their argument in that the Tibetans deserve more human rights than they are getting right now
5. The pro-Chinese justify their arguments in that Tibet has shown violence the Chinese and that China is being aggressive to keep its land
6. People are being plain racist and prejudiced here. Some of the Pro-Tibet/China people are resorting to name calling to justify their argument, which is completely counterproductive
7. Although I am Chinese, I am not biased. Unlike the pro-China people, I can see that the Chinese gov is violating human rights in Tibet, even after it promised to stop when it agreed to host the Olypics. Unlike the pro-Tibetans, I also understand why China has the right to keep Tibet and is doing what it is doing.
A little hitorical background: My dad has a Tibetan friend here in the US who told us that before, the Tibetan civilians and the Chinese who lived in Tibet lived peacefully together. That changed when Dalai Lama and his sect wanted more power. They revolted against the Chinese government, wanting to form their independent country. So, this is basically how the Tibet-China crisis started, when Dalai Lama and his people started masacaring the "Chinese" who lived in tibetan province. This made the chinese gov send troops to Tibet to quell down this chaos, but the troops unfortunately use violence to stop violence, ultimately harming not Dalai Lama, but the Tibetan civilians.
This is all so sad, but please take a moment to think about this. I don't think it is either sides' fault. Although I do blame Dalai Lama, I think that he not only wanted more power and money from the independece but that he also probably thought it would be better for the Tibetans. See? I'm not biased, am I??? =) Anyways, I think this is like the Iraelis and the Palestinians. Both sides, in their own ways, are right. It is difficult to determine which side should keep jerusalem. I think this is sort of like Tibet-China problem because both sides have justifiable reasons, but neither side will acknowledge the other side. I mean, just look at you guys who are bickering on this board!!!
Pauline
I agree most of your argument, but do you have any specific proof that China violated "human right" in Tibet? That seems to be the same message that CNN, BBC and Fox were trying to make. If you do you did, you did a favor to all. That evidence will shut me up. You said that you are not biased, I think actually all human beings are biased creatures.
The Chinese government allows the Tibetans to carry knives but not the Han Chinese, I think the Chinese government owes the Han Chinese “human right”, if the Han Chinese would have the knives, then at least they could defend themselves in the recent riot. I read that a lot of Han Chinese are actually afraid of the Tibetan (Zang) people because of this reason. I read in some blogs that many Zang people used their knives to threaten the Han and Hui. So you see the problem is not as simple as the westerners think.
Most western people here meant well and are trying to give constructive criticism, except a few who really wanted to split and harm China and Chinese due to jealousy, fear, hatred, racism or political reasons and these people who think that they have the moral high ground to criticize China.
It is a human nature to show sympathy when someone is hurt. It is called empathy. But why all the Chinese globally are mad at CNN, BBC and Fox? Because they never seriously or objectively mentioned that the poor Han Chinese were murdered and killed and stoned to death and thus resulted in the false impression to the gullible westerners. For example, CNN cut only a portion of the picture that showed Tibetan mobs throwing stone at a ambulance truck and the mobs throwing stones portion was purposely cut off and the picture titled “Chinese sent in troops to crack down” or something like that. This was done intentionally and no excuses can be given.
I am not trying to argue that China’s government is perfect, I have no intention to defend China, and actually it still has a long way to go to be truly “democratic”. But there is no perfect government on this earth that is truly democratic anyway, only the pot calling the kettle black in my humble opinion. My problem with the Tibet defenders is that they are ignorant of the facts and they are actually sided with a bunch of murderous thugs who killed innocent people and they want the Chinese government to be hands off and give the thugs more freedom and more “human right” to kill more Chinese people. Unless they hate the Chinese so much and their lives worth nothing to them and I just do not understand that bizarre logic and that logic seems to be upheld by congress and president! Oh Lord have mercy! Also I don’t understand why a Christian country’s leaders who professed to be born-again Christian and embrace an idol worshiper again and again. Don’t they know that is very wrong against the bible principle or they are just Sunday Christians? Can some one please help me? Wait! Separate the churches and the state is not what I want to hear, I want true genuine and meaningful answers.
Why don't we see rebellion in Germany, England, France, U.S.? If the citizens are happy, there won't be similar issues. Would you chinese let tibet claim independence if some other tibetan other than Dalai Lama leads their country? Full of execuses. Massacring people cannot be considered an "unfortunate act". Face it, it is intentional. Govts don't just kill people then say "oopps, sorry".
bqh
Did you open some of historian's video clips and at least try to learn something new instead from the media alone? Actually I am so shocked that one of historian's films showed that these Tibetan supporters like you don't even know where Tibet is!
Pardon me to say that you are obviously one of the stubborn people who refused to learn yet still thinks that he is right!
You have dodged my question three times, i.e., why you sided with a bunch of murderers and want to give them more freedom and more "human right" to kill more of their own brothers and sisters? I doubt that you are that blood thirsty? Perhaps you may be one of these riot Tibetans in disguise?
Let me say it again and please listen very carefully: The Tibetan (Zang) thugs killed their own brothers and sisters (Han and Hui). I will give you a quiz on Monday!
Why you mentioned Germany, England, France, etc. Frankly speaking, I have no interest to know their dismal racist past, their horrible human right records and their continued human right violations around the world today.
Let's concentrate on Tibet! We are talking about Tibet which was and is and will always be part of China. I am sure even Jehovah the almighty God is on China's side, because China has a very large Christian population! And even the Christians are supporting their government, thanks to the western media's lies!
Why would anyone with a normal mind want to split Tibet off China? Tibetans (Zang), Hans, Huis, Mogolians, Manchurians and Miaos are all Chinese, Why? Do you want to split your own brothers and sisters away from you own home?
The Olympic Torch Relay Campaign
http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56145
sorry I wasn't trying to say i'm not completely biased. I was trying to say that i was trying not to be.
But aren't the Chinese troops in Tibet killing the civilians? You can't deny that they killed at least one person there can you? The western media does lie, but they won't lie about huge serious problems like that...atleast not a lot.
Anyways, despite what you guys think, good luck to all the atheltes in the Olympics!!!
bph and the person ansewering him: you guys should just stop commenting on this board from now on.
People like me are sick of you guys. You are spewing out your own opinions w/o giving us supporting facts.